Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

The coin I may be able to buy for about $9000 is an 1858 Flying Eagle Cent proof. It is PCGS graded Proof 64 (in one of their old holders).

It appears to be the "Small Letter" variety. Numismedia.com's "collector" price guide puts a PR64 at over $16,000.

I understand first that $16k+ doesn't mean I could sell it for a dealer to that. But are there very many dealers who would even fool with a coin like this, and be willing to pay at least $12,000-$13,000 for it? Or are there very many private collectors who would be interested in something like this and pay closer to $16000?

I also imagine that a coin like this is not very liquid, and I could end up sitting on it for a while. I'm just trying to get a sense of whether or not I should go after this deal, what my margins could be, what buyer and/or dealer interest could be, etc.

Any advice appreciated.

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

You would be crazy to do this.

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

PCGS has it at $13,500 http://www.pcgs.com/prices/PriceGuid...ing+Eagle+Cent
She is a beaut, I'd like to own it.
Maybe take it to Long Beach the next show, and auction it off?

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

Can you do some sort of ebay auction without buying it first? Lease the coin for 2 weeks for $200, with a signed contract stating that you have the OPTION to buy for $9000 after the 2 weeks. Within those 2 weeks, put it on ebay and see what you get. if it's under $9500 - don't buy it. You'll lose your $200, but i think it's worth the risk. Tell the buyer that you are leasing it while you arrange a buyer, because buyers on numi's are rare these days :) And if this works, I'll take a 10% consultation fee. :)

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

Yeoman's "Red Book of US Coins 2010" lists 1858 1 Cent, small letters variety in PF-63 as $8500. Doesn't sound like a great deal; and definitely requires much more research.

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

The numistic market in higher grades is hurting right now, I would not take the risk, get a copy of the grey sheets and see what dealer bid is on the coin.

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

We are on the precipice of entering a world where the 'value' of this coin will be revealed.

Proceed at your permissive peril level.

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

a penny for 9 grand???

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

I was gonna post that too. My wife just looked it up
there is a 1856 "worth" 22k though

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

It's definitely a small letter variety. The PCGS Number would end in 2042 if it was the large letter variety. As previously stated, the PCGS price guide has the PR64 at $13500. However, it has the PR65 at $25000 and PR66 at $42500. It's common knowledge that the OGHs / Rattlers are usually undergraded by at LEAST 1 grade.

Thus, I think it's worth the risk.

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

Thanks for the great advice so far.

I checked this out in Blue Book, couldn't find the proof version of it. I didn't check Red Book, but I would imagine that what you guys quoted is just for the regular penny, not the proof version.



Can you elaborate on this?

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

Lease it skeptic. LEASE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

Based on that PCGS link, a PF-63 is $8500 and a PF-64 is $13,500 - with such a massive dollar amount difference between one tiny grade, I would stay away if you're simply looking to resell because a potential buyer has a lot of negotiation space considering the price one point lower.

And might I remind you Skeptic, you mentioned in a previous thread how idiotic a guy was for buying an expensive coin without taking it out of the slab to inspect it fully. I think for a $13,500 coin, the same rule applies, and a full analysis would require you to unslab it to inspect it from every angle, probably with the help of a professional numismatist. If you did this and re-slabbed it, it might come back at PF-63, and you've just lost your profit margin. Of course, it might come back as PF-65 and all of a sudden that coin has a book value of $25,000. Odds are since that coin holder is so old, it probably has not been through the "slab cracking" game, where people keep resending the coin until they get the higher grade they're looking for. This would be quite a gamble, but it could pay off nicely if luck is on your side.

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

Obviously I would get a better price selling to a collector. But how long would that conceivably take on a coin like this? 1 month? 3 months? 6?

If I sold it to a dealer, I imagine I could find an interested party within a couple of weeks. That would be acceptable turnover time, but I wonder how close to Greysheet bid they would be. I'll stop by my local guy tomorrow and ask to see his Greysheet.

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

numismatics are crazy folks

thats alot of money for a penny

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

Good points.

If I could get the coin cheaper - say, $7000, would that be a no-brainer buy?

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

My thoughts exactly. If I could pull off a deal with this coin, I'd simply put the initial capital invested back into the bank, then buy raw gold bullion with the profit. Beat up bars, scratched coins, whatever. If you're the seller, gold is gold is gold. I'd like to pocket 2-3 free ounces of gold for a little risk and effort.

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

These PCGS prices ... what is that representative of? Prices that collectors are willing to pay? Or is it something more conservative, like Greysheet bid, more representative of what dealers would offer?

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

Sure. The "Old Green Holders" (OGHs) and "Rattler" holders (where the coin can rotate via tapping) are first generation PCGS holders. These were slabbed when grading was much harsher, and in the view of most today, more unfair. Thus, any OGH or Rattlers command a premium, as they can typically be cracked, the coin extracted and sent in to PCGS for grading again. More than likely, you'll end up with a higher grade.

Some people just pay the premium and don't crack them open however, as they are purists and believe today's grades are too forgiving.

In any case, if I had the cash, I'd probably do it.

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

I would search around for different coin dealers in your area or on the net and make a trade for bullion. I am quite sure a dealer who is interested in that coin will give you a better deal on a bullion for numismatic swap than buying it from you with cash.

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

Very good information. So I couldn't bank on a PR65 upon regrade, but it would not be unrealistic.

So based on what you just told me, what would be an absolutely safe/no-brainer price to pay for this coin?

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

1cent - face value

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

Correct, it would not be unrealistic.

If it was a Lincoln, Merc or Morgan, I'd feel confident giving you a safe price. However, I just don't know enough about this coin to do that.

I would recommend what others have suggested - finding a grey sheet and seeing what dealers would pay. Then, compare that to the $9000 ask price. I'd try and talk him down (obviously).

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

Give me 5 minutes and I'll see what I can come up with. I can run some Heritage Auction searches for recent auctions of the coin in the same type, grader and grade.

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

Hopefully this comes out in a viewable format. It looks like there has been only one PR64, Small Letter variety sold at an Heritage auction in 2009 and it went for $11500. These are all Heritage Auctions results for 1858 PR64 Large and Small type varieties, going back to 2000. Enjoy.

• Results include:
• Appraise Collectibles & Art: Auction Archives (remove)
• Archive Status: Archive: Sold (remove)
• Coin Category: Small Cents (remove)
• US Coin Date: 1858 (remove)
• Coin Grade: PR64 (remove)
• Coin Grading Service: PCGS (remove)

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<!-- top pagination -->Result Page:
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<!-- sort area --><FORM name=sortForm action=/common/search_results.php?Ne=40&N=51+790+231+308+42949536 19+80+4294967176&stage=1><LABEL for=cboSort>Sort results by:</LABEL> <SELECT id=cboSort onchange="selectPageChanger(this.form, this);" name=Ns> <OPTION value="">Please select...</OPTION> <OPTION selected value="Best Match">Best Match</OPTION> <OPTION value="Bid and Track Activity|0">Bid and Track Activity:</OPTION> <OPTION value="Bid and Track Activity|1">Bid and Track Activity:</OPTION> <OPTION value="Grade Number|0">Grade: lowest first</OPTION> <OPTION value="Grade Number|1">Grade: highest first</OPTION> <OPTION value="Item Title|0">Item Title: A to Z</OPTION> <OPTION value="Item Title|1">Item Title: Z to A</OPTION> <OPTION value="Lot No|0">Lot No: smallest</OPTION> <OPTION value="Lot No|1">Lot No: largest</OPTION> <OPTION value="Page Hits|0">Page Hits:</OPTION> <OPTION value="Page Hits|1">Page Hits:</OPTION> <OPTION value=Price|0>Price: lowest first</OPTION> <OPTION value=Price|1>Price: highest first</OPTION> <OPTION value=Time|0>Time: ending first</OPTION> <OPTION value=Time|1>Time: ending last</OPTION></SELECT> </FORM>
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<!-- nav results --><SCRIPT type=text/javascript src="/common/includes/bidCheck.js"></SCRIPT><SCRIPT language=JavaScript src="/common/includes/ajax.js"></SCRIPT><SCRIPT language=JavaScript src="/common/includes/md5.js"></SCRIPT><!-- pop-up layers --><FORM style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px" id=lots class=print-safe onsubmit="return submitAll(this);" method=post name=frmBids action=https://coins.ha.com/common/mybids_process.php><INPUT value=https://coins.ha.com/common/mybids_process.php type=hidden name=batchBidAction> <INPUT type=hidden name=trackAction> <!-- use location.href since this is all js anyway --><INPUT value=1 type=hidden name=save_tracking>
<TABLE class=item_hdr><TBODY><TR><TD class=image></TD><TD class=number>Lot No.</TD><TD class=service>SERVICE</TD><TD class=grade>GRADE</TD><TD class=time>Time Left</TD><TD class=track>Track This Item</TD><TD class=bidbuy>Price/Bid/Buy</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE class="lot item_odds row0 Auction_Archives "><TBODY><TR><TD class=image>http://images.ha.com/lf?source=url[f...vemd[true] </TD><TD class=info><TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD class=lotname colSpan=5>1858 1C Small Letters PR64 PCGS. CAC.</I>... </B></I><!-- these two are put here to kill any open ones from the title -->http://goldismoney.info/common/image...WindowIcon.gif </TD></TR><TR class=data><TD><TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD class=number>Lot 91 </TD><TD class=service>PCGS</TD><TD class=grade>PR64</TD><TD class=time>-- </TD><TD class=track><INPUT id=trackitem_1127_2157 class=checkbox value=1127|2157 type=checkbox name=trackitem[]> <LABEL for=trackitem_1127_2157>Track this Item</LABEL> http://goldismoney.info/images/css/questionMark.gif
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD class=auction colSpan=5>2009 July West Palm Beach, FL (Summer FUN) Signature US Coin Auction 1127 Auction ended on Jul 9, 2009
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD><TD class=bidbuy>Sold For: * $11,500.00
Make An Offer To Owner http://goldismoney.info/c/s/i/mycoll.../moto-help.gif

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE class="lot item_evens row1 Auction_Archives "><TBODY><TR><TD class=image>http://images.ha.com/lf?source=url[f...vemd[true] </TD><TD class=info><TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD class=lotname colSpan=5>1858 1C Large Letters PR64 Cameo PCGS.</I>... </B></I><!-- these two are put here to kill any open ones from the title -->http://goldismoney.info/common/image...WindowIcon.gif </TD></TR><TR><TD class=highlights colSpan=5>http://goldismoney.info/c/s/i/endeca/vid-icon.gif </TD></TR><TR class=data><TD><TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD class=number>Lot 2061 </TD><TD class=service>PCGS</TD><TD class=grade>PR64</TD><TD class=time>-- </TD><TD class=track><INPUT id=trackitem_1124_9272 class=checkbox value=1124|9272 type=checkbox name=trackitem[]> <LABEL for=trackitem_1124_9272>Track this Item</LABEL> http://goldismoney.info/images/css/questionMark.gif
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD class=auction colSpan=5>2009 April-May Cincinnati, OH (CSNS) US Coin Auction 1124 Auction ended on Apr 30, 2009
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD><TD class=bidbuy>Sold For: * $12,650.00


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE class="lot item_odds row2 Auction_Archives "><TBODY><TR><TD class=image>http://images.ha.com/lf?source=url[f...vemd[true] </TD><TD class=info><TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD class=lotname colSpan=5>1858 1C Large Letters PR64 PCGS.</I>... </B></I><!-- these two are put here to kill any open ones from the title -->http://goldismoney.info/common/image...WindowIcon.gif </TD></TR><TR class=data><TD><TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD class=number>Lot 278 </TD><TD class=service>PCGS</TD><TD class=grade>PR64</TD><TD class=time>-- </TD><TD class=track><INPUT id=trackitem_1122_100036 class=checkbox value=1122|100036 type=checkbox name=trackitem[]> <LABEL for=trackitem_1122_100036>Track this Item</LABEL> http://goldismoney.info/images/css/questionMark.gif
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD class=auction colSpan=5>2009 February Long Beach, CA Signature US Coin Auction 1122 Auction ended on Feb 5, 2009
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD><TD class=bidbuy>Sold For: * $11,500.00
Make An Offer To Owner http://goldismoney.info/c/s/i/mycoll.../moto-help.gif

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE class="lot item_evens row3 Auction_Archives "><TBODY><TR><TD class=image>http://images.ha.com/lf?source=url[f...vemd[true] </TD><TD class=info><TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD class=lotname colSpan=5>1858 1C Small Letters PR64 PCGS.</I> Low Leaves Reverse. Snow-PT9, die pair 3, dies 2 T3-A. Snow's 2 obverse and T3-A reverse a... </B></I><!-- these two are put here to kill any open ones from the title -->http://goldismoney.info/common/image...WindowIcon.gif </TD></TR><TR class=data><TD><TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD class=number>Lot 93 </TD><TD class=service>PCGS</TD><TD class=grade>PR64</TD><TD class=time>-- </TD><TD class=track><INPUT id=trackitem_398_3199 class=checkbox value=398|3199 type=checkbox name=trackitem[]> <LABEL for=trackitem_398_3199>Track this Item</LABEL> http://goldismoney.info/images/css/questionMark.gif
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD class=auction colSpan=5>2005 December Dallas Signature Auction 398 Auction ended on Dec 13, 2005
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD><TD class=bidbuy>Sold For: * $13,800.00
Make An Offer To Owner http://goldismoney.info/c/s/i/mycoll.../moto-help.gif

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE class="lot item_odds row4 Auction_Archives "><TBODY><TR><TD class=image>http://images.ha.com/lf?source=url[f...vemd[true] </TD><TD class=info><TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD class=lotname colSpan=5>1858 1C Large Letters PR64 PCGS.</I> Deeply reflective mirrors and pinpoint striking details characterize this rare and seldom-... </B></I><!-- these two are put here to kill any open ones from the title -->http://goldismoney.info/common/image...WindowIcon.gif </TD></TR><TR class=data><TD><TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD class=number>Lot 5156 </TD><TD class=service>PCGS</TD><TD class=grade>PR64</TD><TD class=time>-- </TD><TD class=track><INPUT id=trackitem_358_190022 class=checkbox value=358|190022 type=checkbox name=trackitem[]> <LABEL for=trackitem_358_190022>Track this Item</LABEL> http://goldismoney.info/images/css/questionMark.gif
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD class=auction colSpan=5>2004 November Palm Beach, FL Signature Sale 358 Auction ended on Nov 4, 2004
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD><TD class=bidbuy>Sold For: * $12,075.00


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE class="lot item_evens row5 Auction_Archives "><TBODY><TR><TD class=image>http://images.ha.com/lf?source=url[f...vemd[true] </TD><TD class=info><TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD class=lotname colSpan=5>1858 1C Small Letters PR64 Cameo PCGS.</I> Snow-PR2, Snow-PT9. The reverse features the Low Leaves subtype, the ribbon ends do ... </B></I><!-- these two are put here to kill any open ones from the title -->http://goldismoney.info/common/image...WindowIcon.gif </TD></TR><TR class=data><TD><TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD class=number>Lot 5153 </TD><TD class=service>PCGS</TD><TD class=grade>PR64</TD><TD class=time>-- </TD><TD class=track><INPUT id=trackitem_352_19032 class=checkbox value=352|19032 type=checkbox name=trackitem[]> <LABEL for=trackitem_352_19032>Track this Item</LABEL> http://goldismoney.info/images/css/questionMark.gif
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD class=auction colSpan=5>2004 August Pittsburgh, PA Signature Sale 352 Auction ended on Aug 18, 2004
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD><TD class=bidbuy>Sold For: * $17,825.00


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE class="lot item_odds row6 Auction_Archives "><TBODY><TR><TD class=image>http://images.ha.com/lf?source=url[f...vemd[true] </TD><TD class=info><TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD class=lotname colSpan=5>1858 1C Small Letters PR64 PCGS.</I> Snow-PR2. Luminous orange, gold, olive, and rose colors invigorate this meticulously struc... </B></I><!-- these two are put here to kill any open ones from the title -->http://goldismoney.info/common/image...WindowIcon.gif </TD></TR><TR class=data><TD><TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD class=number>Lot 5312 </TD><TD class=service>PCGS</TD><TD class=grade>PR64</TD><TD class=time>-- </TD><TD class=track><INPUT id=trackitem_346_3094 class=checkbox value=346|3094 type=checkbox name=trackitem[]> <LABEL for=trackitem_346_3094>Track this Item</LABEL> http://goldismoney.info/images/css/questionMark.gif
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD class=auction colSpan=5>2004 May (CSNS) Signature Sale 346 Auction ended on May 5, 2004
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD><TD class=bidbuy>Sold For: * $17,250.00


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE class="lot item_evens row7 Auction_Archives "><TBODY><TR><TD class=image>http://images.ha.com/lf?source=url[f...vemd[true] </TD><TD class=info><TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD class=lotname colSpan=5>1858 1C Small Letters PR64 PCGS.</I> This Low Leaves reverse shows the broken U hub on the obverse, where the inner serif of th... </B></I><!-- these two are put here to kill any open ones from the title -->http://goldismoney.info/common/image...WindowIcon.gif </TD></TR><TR class=data><TD><TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD class=number>Lot 5361 </TD><TD class=service>PCGS</TD><TD class=grade>PR64</TD><TD class=time>-- </TD><TD class=track><INPUT id=trackitem_330_151056 class=checkbox value=330|151056 type=checkbox name=trackitem[]> <LABEL for=trackitem_330_151056>Track this Item</LABEL> http://goldismoney.info/images/css/questionMark.gif
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD class=auction colSpan=5>2003 September Long Beach Signature Sale 330 Auction ended on Sep 18, 2003
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD><TD class=bidbuy>Sold For: * $13,800.00


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE class="lot item_odds row8 Auction_Archives "><TBODY><TR><TD class=image>http://images.ha.com/lf?source=url[f...vemd[true] </TD><TD class=info><TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD class=lotname colSpan=5>1858 1C Small Letters PR64 PCGS.</I> When James Buchanan was elected to the presidency in 1856, that was not the only change af... </B></I><!-- these two are put here to kill any open ones from the title -->http://goldismoney.info/common/image...WindowIcon.gif </TD></TR><TR class=data><TD><TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD class=number>Lot 5199 </TD><TD class=service>PCGS</TD><TD class=grade>PR64</TD><TD class=time>-- </TD><TD class=track><INPUT id=trackitem_304_20025 class=checkbox value=304|20025 type=checkbox name=trackitem[]> <LABEL for=trackitem_304_20025>Track this Item</LABEL> http://goldismoney.info/images/css/questionMark.gif
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD class=auction colSpan=5>2002 November Santa Clara Signature Sale 304 Auction ended on Nov 21, 2002
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD><TD class=bidbuy>Sold For: * $10,350.00


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE class="lot item_evens row9 Auction_Archives "><TBODY><TR><TD class=image>http://images.ha.com/lf?source=url[f...vemd[true] </TD><TD class=info><TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD class=lotname colSpan=5>1858 1C Small Letters PR64 PCGS.</I> PR-2. Examples of this die marriage are believed to have been produced at the same time as... </B></I><!-- these two are put here to kill any open ones from the title -->http://goldismoney.info/common/image...WindowIcon.gif </TD></TR><TR class=data><TD><TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD class=number>Lot 5244 </TD><TD class=service>PCGS</TD><TD class=grade>PR64</TD><TD class=time>-- </TD><TD class=track><INPUT id=trackitem_300_3035 class=checkbox value=300|3035 type=checkbox name=trackitem[]> <LABEL for=trackitem_300_3035>Track this Item</LABEL> http://goldismoney.info/images/css/questionMark.gif
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD class=auction colSpan=5>2002 September Long Beach Signature Sale 300 Auction ended on Sep 26, 2002
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD><TD class=bidbuy>Sold For: * $10,062.50


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE class=item_hdr><TBODY><TR><TD class=image></TD><TD class=number>Lot No.</TD><TD class=service>SERVICE</TD><TD class=grade>GRADE</TD><TD class=time>Time Left</TD><TD class=track>Track This Item</TD><TD class=bidbuy>Price/Bid/Buy</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE class="lot item_odds row10 Auction_Archives "><TBODY><TR><TD class=image>http://images.ha.com/lf?source=url[f...vemd[true] </TD><TD class=info><TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD class=lotname colSpan=5>1858 1C Large Letters PR 64 PCGS.</I> Both sides of this flashy near-Gem exhibit warm, honey-pink coloration. The adequately re... </B></I><!-- these two are put here to kill any open ones from the title -->http://goldismoney.info/common/image...WindowIcon.gif </TD></TR><TR class=data><TD><TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD class=number>Lot 7 </TD><TD class=service>PCGS</TD><TD class=grade>PR64</TD><TD class=time>-- </TD><TD class=track><INPUT id=trackitem_216_1096 class=checkbox value=216|1096 type=checkbox name=trackitem[]> <LABEL for=trackitem_216_1096>Track this Item</LABEL> http://goldismoney.info/images/css/questionMark.gif
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD class=auction colSpan=5>2000 F.U.N. Bullet Sale 216 Auction ended on Jan 8, 2000
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
</FORM>

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

:confused_m:wow

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

Send it to Teletrade or heritage auctions.

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

If you don't know numis really well, you should not buy at this price level. For myself, with a limited knowledge of numis, my comfort level is about $50-$100, excluding stuff like the UHR. Case in point, I've bought several medieval coins from APMEX, since they are getting out of the numi biz. Bad thing is, although I've always wanted to get into ancients, I still haven't done the necessary research to make an informed buy, talked with coin dealers that are knowledgeable, etc. This makes them an impulse, rather than an informed buy, which is usually a stupid thing to do. But, we are talking about around $100, rather than close to $10K, a big difference!

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

Just checked Coin Dealer Newsletter, Quarterly Grey Sheet. Sept. 09.
1858 Small Letters PR64. Bid = $10,500. Ask = $11,500.
Most professional dealers will pay 80% to 85% of bid, thus $8400 - $8900.
I would expect to sell this coin for about $10K if I owned it, but it may take a year to find a buyer. It takes effort to find the right buyer for that coin.

I have some really high end inventory. About 40 coins that are between $2K and $12K.
This material is not moving.

All of my sales last 4 shows were coins under $600.00
High grade key date Lincolns, Indian cents, and Morgans still holding up.
Type coins under XF not moving unless deep discount.
Really high end stuff (Dahlonega and Charlotte gold super rare in high grade, not selling)
Bust dollars soft. Have several not moving.

90% silver and one ounce .999 silver moves immediately, but margins are very thin. Buy/sell spreads are 3% or 4% in volume.

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

If you can get it for $7000, to me it would be a total no-brainer buy. Buy it, take it to a local professional numismatist who is a PCGS member, explain to him that you want to crack it and resubmit it to try to get a higher grade. Have him help you crack it and have him send it in. I think you'll get the PR-65. But it's easy for me to say that, it's not my money on the line. But I do know this - those who make the $$ in the numismatic game do it by trading in the ultra rare, valuable coins. If you play it right and luck is on your side, you could potentially make a $10k profit.

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

Many people say that about us gold bugs, but we're still in the money, while they aren't.

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

Don't invest in anything you don't know. If you knew anything about this business you wouldn't be asking for advice from anonymous strangers on the internet.

You're talking two things here, metal and a story. The metal isn't worth much, so you are buying the story. That's ok, stories are worth something. But the worth depends almost entirely on your story telling ability. It sounds like you are a bit weak in that area.

My own study of collector coins shows that buyers often hold them for a few years and then sell them for about half what they cost. You sort of don't want to be one of those, you know what I mean?

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

Has anyone used PCGS "regrade" service, where you leave coin in the PCGS holder and ask to regrade to a higher number, guaranteed to not grade lower?

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

Having the coin regraded sounds like a very good idea. There are high quality fakes of older coins with numismatic value. There was also a story about a year ago of new slabs being faked with a high level of sophistication. Caution should be exercised about thinking an old slab is legitimate just because it looks old. Before agreeing to buy the coin, it would be good to get a money back guarantee that PCGS will re-certify that the coin is genuine. :Sorry:

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

Great info. It sounds like the only way I could flip this coin within 10-15 days (the longest I want to have it) would be to sell to a dealer. I expected that selling it to an individual collector would take at least a month, maybe more... a year was a little longer than I thought, and is far too long.

Even if I let it go to auction as some others suggested, I'm sure the fees and/or hassle may not be worth the extra margin.

Would dealers like yourself be more apt to trade this coin for raw bullion than to simply pay cash for it? I can see the advantages for a dealer, but I can also see the disadvantages.

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

With respect, I think you are wrong here.

I am in no rush to buy the coin, I have 2-3 weeks to make a decision. This gives me plenty of time to gather information.

"Anonymous" does not always equal ignorant. In this thread, in less than 24 hours, I've learned very valuable information from a variety of people, including a dealer who has experience with high value coins. I would rather get information from experienced dealers and enthusiasts here than go to some of the local coin dealers I know, who don't really seem to know much of anything beyond how to overprice a Morgan.

I am open to speculation, but I'm only going to base the decision on absolutes. There is no "story" behind a PCGS graded coin. It is what it is. There seems to be a history of these coins being sold, which I can use as somewhat of a baseline.

The only thing that would make this speculative is if I bought the coin at $8-$10k, then I stand a very real chance of either not making anything, or even losing money. So from what I've gathered here, I'm thinking that as long as I can be in for 7 or less, I can't lose. (Unless of course it's a fake, in which case I would just sue and instantly get my money back! :rofl:)


That sounds very, very appealing.

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

that'll buy 8 ounces of gold or some combination of gold & silver, e.g. 4 oz. of gold (call it $4600), that leaves $4400 for silver, 220+ silver eagles.

i would say the return on the gold is higher. either way you might have to wait, either for a buyer for the penny or for gold to rise as much as you're anticipating the penny to rise.

i don't think silver has de-coupled from the stock market, so silver is vulnerable to a stock market downdraft right now.

another way to invest $9000 ... 6 oz. of gold (6 x $1150 = 3 x 2300 = 6900 ... $2100 left over ... 110+ oz. silver).

i think the 6 oz. gold 110+ oz. silver has more upside, and less risk, than the penny.

of course, if you were buying the penny for your own collection - it sounds like a humdinger of a bargain. if not, maybe you can hook up another collector and score a decent commission without risking your own money, then put that plus the $9000 into PM's.

you got me thinking. :beer: still a nice penny though.

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

Definitely something to consider. The cash I would lay out for this is not something I was planning on investing into PMs; it's some of the business capital I operate with. That's why I would have to turn the coin (ie sell to a dealer at less of a profit) quickly. So I do think that whatever profit I could turn would outpace potential profit from buying that much gold immediately, without me having to tie up $9k that I want to keep in cash as long as possible.

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

Not possible in this situation. I have to buy/own it straight out. :(

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

Would dealers like yourself be more apt to trade this coin for raw bullion than to simply pay cash for it? I can see the advantages for a dealer, but I can also see the disadvantages.[/QUOTE]

Cash, check, and bullion are all the same thing to me. One day, I have $50K in checking, next day, I have 30 Krugerrands and $20K in checking, money and inventory are all the same. Money is money, no matter the form.

If you can buy that coin for $8K, do it. Consign to Heritage. They will sell it for $10,000 to $10,500 and skim 15% and you get $8,500 or so.

If you pay $9K and your potential profit is very limited. $7K is a no brainer, you will make money flipping it to a dealer in a week.

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

berkscoin,

What do you think about the coin possibly being under graded since it is in an old holder? How many dealers would be willing to pay a premium above typical going rates for PR64 knowing that it would possibly regrade at PR65? And if so, what kind of premiums would I be looking at?

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

Boy, a riverboat gambler would love this deal.

The CHINESE are very good. :36_3_16: Before I bought I'd have it checked first.

That's me - I'm a tad suspicious - follow the money and find the crooks type...

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

How long would you say the Chinese have been making fakes like this now?

This is from a really old collection, lots of other PCGS old-holder stuff.

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

- You make money when you buy a coin - end of story!

However:

- There is a reason that coin is still in a rattler...

- And as stated above, "Grey Sheets".

- The Grey sheets & a better buying price are your only friends, my friend.

- Eye wouldn't touch that coin with a 6,000 foot long toothpick!!!! Or a ten foot pole!!!! - Good Luck.

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

Skeptic unless you are allowed to send the coin back to PCGS to be re certified/authenticated I would, as other's have said.. STAY AWAY! The owner should not object to this for obvious reasons. Although if the coin came back PR65 what would the asking price be?

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

Is this a local offer? You've already found there are bogus Philharmonics circulating in your area. Who's to say this several thousand dollar 19th century penny you aren't familiar with isn't fake too? Sounds very risky.

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

It's from an estate.... the person was a collector of coins from all over the world, and has a lot of stuff in rattlers. So I trust it more than if it was a single coin being offered. There are actually several more in the collection with considerable numi value, but this is the big one.

Bottom line though, that coin isn't going anywhere until someone pays cash for it. :(

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

I've been at this for a long-time! I'd take my original advice!

Do you know the person collected coins... Or was that what was told to you... I'm being facetious, nothing you say will sway my earlier decision...

Let me just leave you with this thought, a well paid numismatist looked over any and all of those coins. A must sell price was put in on that coin, and that must sell price is slightly above market price. Any coin that was a deal, has already been, quietly, leaked out to friends and family and is in their possession - Aren't lawyers grand...

Last, the only good thing about knowing it's an Estate sale is that the numismatist that looked at it had to authenticate it, so it's probably real.

Your Profit Margin is Minimal, if at all. Someone once said, you have better chances at winning the lotto by not buying a ticket... Think about that! Instead buy Gold & or Silver Bullion!

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

Achieving PR65 upgrades is difficult, if not impossible. There is money to be made sending in cracked out 62's trying for 63, and cracking out 63's and trying for 64's. I have had zero success cracking out 64's and getting 65.

Recent story: Good dealer friend on mine bought an 1884 PR64 $3 Gold (PCGS). Paid $14K. Cracked it out and sent to PCGS two or three times, and NGC two or three times. Went to Baltimore show and paid $100 to regrade as a "walk through". Got PR64 every time. He and I really believed this coin should be a 65, it was flawless and great strike, color, etc.

He finally sold it to David Hall for $14,500. The coin was soon reholdered as a PR65 and was auctioned for a selling price of $32K. My friend could not achieve PR65, but "someone else" can, if you are the right "someone else".

Don't count on getting an upgrade. Either buy the coin under market or walk away. Don't gamble.

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

Not sure on this one. They are also selling off several 1oz GAE proofs (mostly 86s) in original mint packaging, and their expected price is not even $1100 max on all of them. Also selling a proof set in mint packaging, expecting $2100. These things would be a STEAL at these prices with pretty big margin.

Overall I think they have a decent handle on coins, but something as simple as not understanding the huge premium on proofs means that they are likely to overlook other value.


What a raw deal. :s15:

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

65 is supposed to confer "gem" status on a coin, the next tier in quality really, so that would be a reason why PCGS or NGC would be so tough on it as it sits. Just with it sitting in the Old Holder gives it additional appeal, so I would leave it that way if you buy it.

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

I like that.

About 7 years ago now, my best friend told me about this awesome company he got to buy private shares in, one share at $3500. It was developing a revolutionary engine that was going to get 100mpg. It was literally almost finished and sold, everyone was expected to be multi-millionaires in just weeks. FORTUNATELY, there was ONE last meager stock offering, and I had to act IMMEDIATELY.

I was leery, and I didn't even have $1000 then, much less $3500.


Today -

The "inventor" has a new house, a houseboat, a Hummer, and has started an exotic car rental service + real estate deals + a company that trades Leer jets.

The investors haven't seen one dime.

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

GAE Proofs... That's not the kind of deal I was talking about - they are a dime a dozen (for now anyway). I meant investment type coins, and again, your thinking shows that you are in the right ball park my friend, but you don't know all the rules yet.

I'm not trying to judge or beat you up, but you asked for advice. It's free advice, yet learned, so in the end you'll just have to take mine & everyone else's for what it's worth.

Trust me, I'm always looking for a crack-out coin! I'm always trying to figure out the next home-run coin. Things are not even what they were 5 years ago! Things are tough and I hit the pavement daily in search!

Most rattlers have been cracked-out!
Most Saint Gaudens, and many other numismatic coins, have been submitted, cracked out, re-submitted cracked out, over and over and over. It's an old game with no new characters. Hold for the new UHR, but only on a very small scale. IMO if and when the Palladium UHR's come out, I think they will be an outstanding investment, but what I am really hoping is that a Palladium UHR may just be the catalyst for a new palladium series of coin and that will be a fun run and game to play. However, my friend, I just don't think the odds are in your favor with the coin you seek and I see the money better spent elsewhere. What happens if you crack it out and it gets a lower grade??? That would be throwing good money after bad! Now, who would you send it to, to get re-graded? It's only NGC or PCGS, and would you crack it out yourself or submit it holdered? Cracking those bad boys out is Simple - Do Not Pay a dealer! However, I have written elsewhere, I know for a fact that at least one NGC grader looks for tiny tiny plastic shards and grades HARSHLY on any coin he finds any on and remotely thinks may be a crack-out. Do you know which company grades penny more harshly period? Again, too many odds against you!

Moreover, you may get it. Crack it out, send it into PCGS and get lucky!!! But, luck is another word for gambling!

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

Hey, I gotta a old rattler with the DEED to the Broklynn Bridge in it and as a bonus you get the airplane that "Wrong Way Corrigan flew too!"

http://www.centennialofflight.gov/es...rigan/EX16.htm

He got mixed up a bit on making money too!

:thumb.aspx::111::111:

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

I love risk. But I'm also the guy who won't play slots; only basic strategy blackjack with favorable rules. Calculated risk, in other words.

From the responses here, and from a conversation I had with a semi-close dealer I met at a coin show a few days ago, I think that if I do buy it, I will just try to sell it in the rattler for a premium and not risk the regrade.


Those GAE proofs? I'd buy them all day long at $1100 and ship them right off to Gainesville, APMEX, Tulving, etc for $1500-1600. If Tulving is still offering that $3250 trade in deal on proof GAE sets, and I could get the set $1000 below that, that's a no brainer deal right there. I could conceivably come out with several free ounces of gold if I get all of the proof stuff.

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

HS quote of the day:
"My MOMMA told me that she drowned all the DUMB ones!"

:111::111:

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

"Someday the riverboat gamblers and day traders whom value themslves in their paper fiat will all be broke when the U.S. dollar goes to its nominal paper value of zero worth."- mark my words.


Yes they'll all think they are winners like the fellow who owned G.M. for 22 BILLION before the crash in '29 and found his net worth $25,000.00 a few year later. This was after he BUILT a billion dollar castle on the river that the U.A.W. burnt to the ground when he stopped their union strike. (Life's terrible and then it got worse!)

TPTB in G.M. Detroit gave him at 71 years old a small pension to die on. Like eating CROW with gravy.

"now what if?" :bull-smile::23_28_100s::thumb.aspx:

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

"It's not 100% what-you-know, but it helps also who-you-know: better yet is who-YOU-Are!"

Best thing I read in months is above my quote.

HS :23_28_100s:

Moral is: Sell to a WHO-YOU-ARE and watch them make those fiat dollars that one covets so dearly.

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

PCGS is supposed to be "independant". Do PCGS employees submit their own coins?

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

Numis are incredibly difficult to assess where they are going. So many factors come into play, some of them things that really have nothing to do with an individual coin.

You have to first assess the coin and this takes a lot of very specific knowledge. Trusting in a TPG holder just doesn't cut it if you ask me. You can line up a handful of the same coins in the same grade and see a wide range of conditions and eye appeal.

After that you need to look at the market for that particular type of coin and then look at the the over all economy. High end numis dont really lend themselves to a quick turnover.

Before I pull the trigger on a coin, I try to ask myself who do I see myself selling this coin to, and how long do I see myself holding on to it?

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

the OWNER just "might" have an inside track, right? Or the BOSS trumps "independence" especially for $10,000 grand plus a coin, right?

Like a CANDY shop owner doesn't test the CANDY!

"In every thing under the sun there is nothing new!" - King Solomon 3,000 year ago in Proverbs. The quick BUCK artists are in every profession. Even a few cops get caught every year - when they do they pay with thier lives in prison because they are 10 times more hunted than "child molesters" that the prisoners hate because they all have kids!

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

No kidding, that's a conflict of interest if I ever saw one. Regardless of who "submitted" it, or who "consigns" it, if it's David Hall's coin, that is certainly an ethics question.

As for the OP's coin - why did it only get a 64? If you can't answer that question, find someone who can.

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

Yeah, JUST :biggrin: TRY to PROVE it! Tee Tee Tee.

ANYbody that helps you will be given his job in a BODY BAG :111:- pun intended.

The Code of HONOR - the honoring :yes: of their current job - is on-the-line.

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

I don't know anything about Numismatics except that apmex is getting out of them

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

Let us know how it works out, okay?

And you are right about graded slabs drawing a high % over the mint shipped ones.

:36_3_16::ciao:

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

It's one of those things that's going to happen regardless, but it still rubs me the wrong way. One would assume David Hall is not exactly short of money, so why would he risk tainting his reputation to make a buck? I know every dealer faces a relationship dilemma of ethics/honesty versus potential profit (to think otherwise would be naive), but if you're in his position...why bother?

It's that exact dilemma that keeps me from opening my own shop, even though there's nothing I'd rather do for a "job".

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

Thanks guys. The 22nd is when I'll see what exactly happens, and how cheap I can get the coin. I'm thinking that if I can't get it for less than $7500, I'm out. I think at that price, the worst that could happen would be breaking even.

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

what stops someone from using wire EDM & other engraving technologies to crank out some dies & making a hundred coins ?

at $7500 a pop, it seems like the incentive is there.

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

Morality, and the law. What's to stop me from kicking in a bunch of front doors and looting people's shit when they aren't home?

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l2...r29/Johnny.jpg

Re: Opportunity to possibly make thousands on a rare coin - advice appreciated
 

This thread came back to haunt me, at a local coin club meeting this type of penny came up. I didn't buy it.